"Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
"Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #1
Leider alles englisch, eventuell mit einem Online-Übersetzer wzB Google versuchen (Link kopieren und einfügen)...

Ein Laien-Artikel von Thomas Matt über sich bzw Männer, die neben CIS-Frauen auch Trans-Frauen lieben, die Probleme für Trans-Frauen zB beim Outing:

Defeating Shame: My Story of Trans-Attraction 10/20/2013 (weavenews.org)

Schön die Kommentare dazu. Auch in einem TV-Magazin @tytnetwork.com wurde darüber gesprochen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMNFRDdfGQ

Hier ein Artikel über dieses Thema von Transgender-Aktivistin Janet Mock:

How Society Shames Men Dating Trans-Women & How This Affects Our Lifes 09/12/2013 (janetmock.com)

Hier ein Video mit Marc Lamont Hill mit/über den erwähnten "ertappten" DJ Mister Cee in welchem auch Janet Mock und Laverne Cox (und Mark Anthony Neal sowie Mychal Denzel Smith) über das Thema sprechen: Remixing The Trans & Hip Hop Conversation 09/12/2013 (huffingtonpost.com)

In Europa bzw deutschen Medien ist das ja noch überhaupt kein Thema, bis auf ein bisschen "(RTL/Bild-)Klatsch" über Lorielle London und ihren Lebensgefährten bzw den einen und anderen kindisch-dümmst-gefährlichen Rapper-Diss...

Nachtrag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu8RJiQ80mk
Zitat:Sasa: Kay One bewundert mich
Veröffentlicht am 12.10.2014
Ob eine Karriere als Nacktmodel etwas für sie wäre, ob sie ihren Körper noch komplett angleicht und was sie über Kay One denkt, verriet Sasa ("Kay One - Prinzessin gesucht") uns.
[Bild: avatar_202.jpg] „NATSUME! NATSUMEe! NATSUMEee!“ — Nyanko-Sensei en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natsume%27s_Book_of_Friends

RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #2
Ein Artikel aus diesem Jahr von Deja Nicole Greenlaw:

Cisgender Men and Their Fears of Dating Trans Women 03/05/2015 (therainbowtimesmass.com)
[Bild: avatar_202.jpg] „NATSUME! NATSUMEe! NATSUMEee!“ — Nyanko-Sensei en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natsume%27s_Book_of_Friends

RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #3
Da das Internet doch ein bisserl vergesslich sein kann, hier die zwei Artikel, (noch) gefunden im archive.org...

(12.03.2015, 08:26)Bonita schrieb: ...
Defeating Shame: My Story of Trans-Attraction 10/20/2013 (weavenews.org)
Als PDF-Anhang:
.pdf   Defeating Shame_ My Story of Trans-Attraction _ The Weave.pdf (Größe: 602,04 KB / Downloads: 2)

(12.03.2015, 08:43)Bonita schrieb: ...
Cisgender Men and Their Fears of Dating Trans Women 03/05/2015 (therainbowtimesmass.com)
Als PDF-Anhang:
.pdf   Cisgender Men and Their Fears of Dating Trans Women _ The Rainbow Times.pdf (Größe: 369,31 KB / Downloads: 3)
[Bild: avatar_202.jpg] „NATSUME! NATSUMEe! NATSUMEee!“ — Nyanko-Sensei en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natsume%27s_Book_of_Friends

RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #4
Ich poste hier nochmal den Textinhalt, weil dieser Typ genau das beschreibt wie ich mich fühle und was ich eben auch über mich herausgefunden habe. Sehr cool, dass es da eben Leute gibt die sich genau in diesem Zwiespalt wiederfinden wie ich!!!

Zitat:As a man, I never thought I would have to come out about being attracted to women. It is simultaneously funny and sad to me that I have to come out about being heterosexual. I do not see anything different about my sexual orientation, but most people do. About four years ago, I was an exchange student in Thailand, a country known for its large, open transgender population. While most men seemed to treat trans-women as if they were people to avoid, I saw no difference between them and cisgender women (women that were born biologically female; see glossary). After realizing that I was attracted to people that identify as women, whether they are trans or cisgender, the next three years of my life were full of confusion and shame.

The heteronormative world in which we live had successfully convinced me that being attracted to transgender women meant I had a fetish. I began questioning my sexuality and even my masculinity. For three years I did not even know what to call my sexual orientation. Finally, one day after hours of searching I came across two terms that could describe what I was feeling. Neither one is official or widely used, but their use is growing due to the increasing demand for a way a categorize people that are attracted to transgender people. Trans-attraction and trans-orientation were the words that I discovered. As I discovered these words, a feeling of relief washed over me when I realized that this meant I was not alone. I don’t always describe myself as trans-attracted, but the label helped me feel like I had a place in the queer community and it helps others understand my sexuality.

After spending my junior year of high school in Thailand, it became a second home for me. I eagerly returned last spring for a study abroad semester and was able to see my host family and friends for the first time in three and a half years. During this second trip to Thailand, I was re-exposed to the very open transgender community there. Again, I started thinking about my sexuality almost every day and this inner-conflict re-arose. That was when I started reading queer theory. Julia Serano, a transgender activist and writer, pointed out that it is not acceptable to consider attraction to trans-women a fetish, because that reduces them to fetish objects. Trans-women are treated as if they are not worthy of love. In her speech titled “The Beauty in Us”, she said, “Because our culture deems us undesirable, our lovers and partners are often expected to explain why they choose to be with us.” After reading that powerful speech as well as many other queer theorists, heteronormaitivity, transphobia, and the shaming of trans-attraction began to look backwards and ridiculous instead of my sexual orientation.

However, I was not ready to be open because I was not yet aware of the desperate societal need for me to do so. I did not realize just how damaging my shame could be to trans-women. It was not until I fell for a transgender girl in Thailand that the prison bars of my own silence finally melted away. When we met I thought that she might be transgender, but I was not sure. Regardless of what might be between her legs, I found her confidence, independence, and grace inspiring. We started seeing each other.

We met three times before she told me she was transgender. It breaks my heart when I remember how nervous she was. She was afraid to tell me for two reasons. One was fear of rejection. It must be so painful to be turned away and shunned by someone you like because he does not see you as a “real” woman, whatever that means. The other devastatingly sad fear that she had to deal with was fear for her safety. I could have exploded into a violent, transphobic rage and responded with my fists, or even a weapon. This happens to transgender women all the time, often when all they are doing is searching for love. According to Trans Murder Monitoring, there were 265 trans people murdered in 2012 alone. Somehow, facing those fears, she mustered the amazing strength and courage to tell me.

I watched relief pour over her face when I told her that I didn’t care. It’s a strange world that we live in when two people that are attracted to each other have to come out to each other. Later that evening, she turned to me and said, “I feel free.” Finally being open about my sexuality was liberating for me too.

So why bother coming out? I could easily hide this since I am attracted to cisgender women too. I decided to be open about this because of how few openly trans-attracted people there are in the world and how this silence contributes to stigma about trans-people and sexuality. Although trans-attraction is hardly a rare phenomenon, it remains hidden because almost all trans-attracted men are in the closet. As a result, the common assumption is that men who date trans-women are desperate and simply put up with the fact that the woman is trans. Yet, we are not just OK with it; we are just as attracted to trans-women as we are to cis-women, regardless of their biological sex.

A few weeks ago, in September, DJ Mister Cee, a prominent figure in the hip-hop community, was “caught” with a transgender woman. After being outed and admitting to being attracted to trans-women, he was so ashamed that he resigned from his job at the radio station Hot 97. His trans-attraction was turned into a scandal. The only thing that should be considered scandalous is the fact that he had to hide his attraction in the first place. I want to be open about my sexuality because I have had enough of this shaming of trans-attracted men and the damage this does to trans-women. It has created a disgusting culture of trans-attracted men using trans-women for sex, but never forming a committed relationship with them. Most trans-attracted men are only trans-attracted at night. Then during the day they run back to their heteronormative relationships with cis-women of whom they are not ashamed. Even men that are in committed relationships with trans-women will often tell those women that they could never introduce them to their friends or family. Imagine a woman that has been to hell and back trying to transition into who she really is only to be told by her lover that he is ashamed to be with her. The hardship that trans-attracted men go through (and believe me, it is hard), does not even come close to what trans-women have to go through in their day-to-day lives. That is why it is so important for trans-attracted men to start coming out of the closet. Personally, I am proud to be attracted to women that are so strong.

Many men are not attracted to transgender women, and that is OK. But some men are attracted to trans-women, and that is also OK. I am attracted to women, period.

By Thomas Matt

Danke Bonita, dass du das nochmals ausgegraben hast!!! Die ersten zwei Absätze sind eigentlich ein Spiegel meiner aktuellen Gefühlslage...

RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #5
Und dann wird in dieser Forendiskussion noch auf einen anderen Artikel verlinkt, der ebenso interessant ist. Dieser Blog-Artikel beschreibt eben das Stigma des 'trans-attracted man' (keine Ahnung wie man 'trans-attracted' ins deutsche übersetzen kann. Ich bleib beim Englischen.)

Zitat:How Society Shames Men Dating Trans Women & How This Affects Our Lives

September 12, 2013 Janet 166 Comments

Guess what? Many men are attracted to women, and trans women are amongst these women.

We, as a society, have not created a space for men to openly express their desire to be with trans women. Instead, we shame men who have this desire, from the boyfriends, cheaters and “chasers” to the “trade,” clients, and pornography admirers. We tell men to keep their attraction to trans women secret, to limit it to the internet, frame it as a passing fetish or transaction. In effect, we’re telling trans women that they are only deserving of secret interactions with men, further demeaning and stigmatizing trans women.

I’ve stood witness to many so-called scandals, mostly published on gossip blogs, where passing interactions with trans women spawn hundreds of headlines, particularly for a man with fame and social capital. Thousands of words have been dedicated to analyzing whether such and such famous man is now suspect, merely because he took a photo with a fan who happened to be a trans woman. This questioning has led many well-known men to adamantly defend their heterosexuality and has tarnished the reputation and careers of others. It sounds like silliness on the surface, but often times when gossip blogs are the public’s only exposure to trans women, it spreads misinformation, validates stereotypes and causes irreparable damage.

When a man can be shamed merely for interacting with a trans women – whether it be through a photograph, a sex tape or correspondences — what does this say about how society views trans women? More important, what does this do to trans women?

This pervasive ideology says that trans women are shameful, that trans women are not worthy of being seen and that trans women must remain a secret — invisible and disposable. If a man dares to be seen with a trans woman, he will likely lose social capital so he must adamantly deny, vehemently demean, trash and/or exterminate the woman in question. He must do this to maintain his standing in our patriarchal society. For a man to be associated with a trans women, in effect, is to say that he is no longer a “real” man (as if such a thing exists) because he sleeps with “fake” women (as if such a thing exists).

RELATED VIDEO: MSNBC’s Melissa Harris-Perry quotes this piece in her “Letter of Week”

The comments and conversations surrounding hip-hop DJ Mister Cee’s sex scandal-turned-resignation has been appalling, and has led me to this essay, which isn’t about him soliciting sex from someone he perceived as a trans woman. The Mister Cee “scandal” sheds light on society’s ignorance, similarly exhibited when Chris Brown, Chingy and Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson took photos with trans women; similarly exhibited when folks gender-policed Joseline Hernandez to the point where she Tweeted a nude photo to prove her cis-ness; similarly exhibited when Eddie Murphy, LL Cool J and a list of other powerful men were accused of being “caught” seeking trans women.

This anti-trans woman ideology is harmful, misogynistic and pervasive and travels way beyond the comments section of gossip blogs, and as Sylvia Rivera once said, “I will no longer put up with this shit.”

I am a trans woman. My sisters are trans women. We are not secrets. We are not shameful. We are worthy of respect, desire, and love. As there are many kinds of women, there are many kinds of men, and many men desire many kinds of women, trans women are amongst these women. And let’s be clear: Trans women are women.

The shame that society attaches to these men, specifically attacking their sexuality and shaming their attraction, directly affects trans women. It affects the way we look at ourselves. It amplifies our body-image issues, our self-esteem, our sense of possibility, of daring for greatness, of aiming for something or somewhere greater. If a young trans woman believes that the only way she can share intimate space with a man is through secret hookups, bootycalls or transaction, she will be led to engage in risky sexual behaviors that make her more vulnerable to criminalization, disease and violence; she will be led to coddle a man who takes out his frustrations about his sexuality on her with his fists; she will be led to question whether she’s worthy enough to protect herself with a condom when a man tells her he loves her; she will be led to believe that she is not worthy of being seen, that being seen heightens her risk of violence therefore she must hide who she is at all costs in order to survive.

When I was a girl finding myself, I was met with similar questions and believed I would never find someone to love me. I had learned that I was unworthy and undeserving, and it took me years to release myself from the shame and stigma society had forced upon me as a young woman. A man’s desire for my body, my brain, my brilliance and my existence is not a laughing matter because I am not a joke.

RELATED VIDEO: I appear with Laverne Cox on Huffpost Live to discuss loving trans women

When I met my boyfriend Aaron and disclosed that I am trans, he did not question his sexuality. He recognized me as a woman, and my being trans did not negate my womanhood. My relationship with Aaron is a rarity, though. Don’t get me wrong, I see our loving partnership as a blessing, but not in the same way others view it. Our relationship is marveled at largely because most people do not believe that a man like Aaron should have to “compromise” his heteronormative social standing by being with a trans woman or a woman who is not “real.”

It is rare for an openly trans woman – no matter how “passable” or attractive she is – to have a man who openly loves her, who has an unabashed desire to be seen with her, who proudly stands beside her — despite the stigma and other people’s curiosities and inappropriate questions. Those questions regarding Aaron’s sexuality are constant and fraught with assumptions that this essay can’t begin to unpack, and for a man less secure it can be difficult navigating these questions, especially if you also perceive the women you’re attracted to as shameful, as less-than-human objects you must keep secret at all costs.

It’s important that we begin truly accepting trans women as who they are, women. We are not objects to have secret sex with, to discard and to laugh at on the radio or the gossip blogosphere. We are worthy of being seen and are not dirty or shameful. Until we begin checking how we delegitimize the identities, bodies and existence of trans women and stigmatize the men who yearn to be with us, we will continue to marginalize our sisters, pushing them further into socially-sanctioned invisibility, left in the dark to fend for themselves with men who don’t have the space to explore, define and embrace their attraction to various women.


RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #6
Und hier eine weitere Sichtweise einer nonOP M2F-TG. Sie hat eben viele Datingerfahrungen gemacht und schreibt darüber, dass es vielleicht besser wäre, uns Männer nicht zu stigmatisieren bzw. es als Fetisch abzutun. Sie spricht auch von den sexuellen Erfahrungen die sie gemacht hat.

Zitat:Lovers or Fetishists? The men who love trans women

TOPICSBig Grineja Nicole GreenlawFetishistsLoversTrans Women
Deja Nicole Greenlaw at a former Pride celebration circa 2012.
Photo: TRT Archives
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By: Deja Nicole Greenlaw*/TRT Columnist

Recently, I read an opinion piece about men who desire trans women. The column went on to say that some of these men are fetishists who fetishize the bodies of trans women. The piece further goes on and states that the only reason these men want to be with a trans woman is because they don’t truly see the trans woman as a person but rather as an object of their fetishistic desires. I have seen various columns and articles over the years about this subject. Now I can’t speak for every trans woman nor can I speak for any man who does love trans women, but I have been dating men for eight years now as a trans woman and I have a much different perspective on this matter of labeling these men as fetishists.

I am a trans woman who rejected the idea of genital surgery. Yes, I still have my original genitals and I have no thoughts of having the surgery. I know that many, if not most, trans women place a huge value on genital surgery and they refer to it as GCS, gender confirmation surgery, and that they deem it as necessary to live their lives. I agree with their avenues of thought, that is, if you require GCS then you should have it. As for myself, I don’t require GCS so I never had it. Besides, I am very wary of any kinds of surgeries, so I decided to live full time as female while retaining my original genitals.

I like men and I have dated many men. Yes, these men like my penis but they also like my breasts, my derriere, and my legs. I’m not so certain that if they like my penis then it is considered a fetish. I know that many men constantly sexualize women’s breasts, derriere, legs, etc. Why not just add the penis? To me it’s just another one of my body parts that some men sexualize.

In my relations with the men I’ve dated, I have never felt like I was a fetish object. They have always treated me like a lady and have respected me as a lady. Yes, of course I have picked up on their urge to make love to me but I have found it no different than any man wanting to make love to any woman. Maybe I attract a certain kind of man but they have always been very gentlemanly with me. Oh there’s been some great kissing and wonderful upper body experiences but only a few have actually gone “all the way” with me and believe it or not, some of these love experiences did not involve my penis at all. To me it felt like two people, a man and a woman, making love and these weren’t one night stands. Yes, there were more dates, but there always seemed to be a problem.

The problem was that most of my dates were reluctant to be seen with me in public with their straight friends or in their hometowns. Only one man did introduce me to a couple of his straight friends and we did go shopping together in his local grocery store.  You see, there is still a social stigma in the straight world placed on a man who likes trans women. It’s sad, but it’s true. Add to that stigma the fact that some folks label these men as fetishists doesn’t help either.

The real problem, in my opinion, is the social stigma that is placed on men who like trans women and it becomes worse when these men are labeled as sick fetishists. This drives them even further into their closets, and being in their closets prevents these men from coming out as our lovers. Maybe I’m missing something about this fetishization, but I do date men regularly. I do see the prejudices and the stigmas against these men. To me, if a man likes my penis that is fine with me. What is not fine with me is that he is made to feel less-than by people who call him a fetishist.

*Deja Nicole Greenlaw is a trans woman who has three grown children and is retired from 3M. She can be contacted at dejavudeja@sbcglobal.net.


RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #7
Ich habe deswegen die Texte hier rein kopiert, weil sie eben vielleicht helfen können, uns 'trans-attracted' Männer, besser zu verstehen.
Es wäre toll wenn unterschieden werden könnte zwischen denen, die einzig sexuelle Begierden befriedigt sehen wollen und uns, die eben Transfrauen als Frauen sehen und sich doch nur eine normale Beziehung wünschen würden. (Ich wünschte ich müsste das nicht so betonen, weil das für uns selbstverständlich ist, dass Transfrauen Frauen sind).

Ich finde diese Storys sehr interessant und habe eben zum Teil genau die selbe Entdeckungsreise in mich selbst durchgemacht wie dieser Matt Thomas.

RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #8
Und die Story von Thomas Matt steht hier übrigends auch nochmal wenn man nicht den Umweg über die Way-back-machine machen will:

RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #9
(05.05.2017, 05:24)Pepeg schrieb: Es wäre toll wenn unterschieden werden könnte zwischen denen, die einzig sexuelle Begierden befriedigt sehen wollen und uns, die eben Transfrauen als Frauen sehen und sich doch nur eine normale Beziehung wünschen würden. (Ich wünschte ich müsste das nicht so betonen, weil das für uns selbstverständlich ist, dass Transfrauen Frauen sind).
Die Aussage impliziert - mehr oder weniger - dass Transfrauen vom Rest der Welt nicht als Frauen gesehen werden.

'Trans-attracted men' sind also die Guten, die uns retten wollen. Die sogar (teilweise) so weit gehen und uns ihrer Verwandtschaft vorzustellen. Wow, das haut mich jetzt echt vom Hocker.

Ich mein, wie krank ist das denn? Ein Mann ist so ziemlich das letzte dass ich brauche um als Frau gesehen zu werden. Wenn ich das selbst nicht kann, und vom Rest der Welt auch nicht als Frau akzeptiert werde, na dann gute Nacht.

Als Transfrau bin ich eine Frau, Punkt. 'Trans-attracted men' verschlimmern mit ihren Aussagen nur noch alles, indem sie immer wieder auf die 'Besonderheit' von Transfrauen hinweisen.

Wenn sie Transfrauen 100%ig als Frauen sehen würden, müssten sie sich ja weder outen noch so ein Tamtam darum machen. 

Da sind die 'sexual attracted men' ja fast noch die besseren, da die keinen Hehl daraus machen, dass es ihnen um Triebbefriedigung geht. 'Trans-attracted' sehen sich dem gegenüber ja als die edlen Ritter, nur weil bei ihnen die sexuelle Komponente nicht so ausgeprägt ist. Ist natürlich auch ein Leistung.
[Bild: bild1.jpg]  IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED, FIX YOUR Ponytail AND TRY AGAIN.[Bild: bild0.jpg]

RE: USA: "Ich steh (als Mann) auf CIS- und Trans-Frauen, und das ist OK"
Beitrag #10
Ok, deine Ansicht. Ich weiß, dass es immer unterschiedliche Sichtweisen gibt. Vielleicht lässt du andere Meinungen auch gelten. Scheinbar ist dein Problem ein ganz anderes. Denn eben du kannst keine anderen gelten lassen.

Scheinbar kann man dir das Thema nicht erklären, denn wir starten bei dieser Diskussion immer wieder von vorne. Schon wieder wo du etwas hinein interpretierst. Ich weiß nun, dass deine Meinung festgefahren ist. Dich wollte ich damit auch nicht ansprechen, sondern eine Community, die offen für andere Sichtweisen ist. So einen Blödsinn mit "sogar der Verwandtschaft vorstellen" will ich nicht mal kommentieren.

Wenn es nicht so Leute wie dich gäbe, müsste man eben auch keinen so großen Tamtam machten darum.

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